Transcript for
Engaging fathers who use violence
Narrator [00:00:02] Welcome to the Emerging Minds podcast.
Sophie Guy [00:00:08] You’re with Sophie Guy, and today I’m speaking with David Tully about engaging fathers in their child’s social and emotional wellbeing and what this looks like in the family violence context. David has worked in the area of domestic violence and childhood sexual assault for over twenty years, both as practitioner and service manager. He is currently the practice manager for specialised family violence services at Relationships Australia in South Australia.
[00:00:34] David, thank you very much for giving up some of your time this afternoon and coming to talk to us. Thank you for inviting me. So we’re here today to have a conversation about engaging fathers. We’re talking about engaging fathers specifically rather than engaging parents. Can you tell me, is this a useful distinction to make?
David Tully [00:00:52] I think in any time when we’re thinking about our work and trying to find ways to make our work reach people, be effective, actually create change, and particularly, you know, focussed as, well how do we can’t change. So the environment where children can develop, engage, and flourish is really important that we look at all aspects of social experience in that. And obviously, gender is a very powerful and important aspect of social identity. So it makes a lot of difference in the way people will potentially engage in services, find different ways of service delivery be useful or not useful, and also what they will take out of those processes. So gender’s a very important thing to think about. And also as well it’s important to be to think about the complexity within gender. Then how different things intersect with gender. So one’s one person’s experience of man will be shaped by certain social experiences, which we different to another man.
David Tully [00:01:49] So we always need to not create these categories that become like big meta narratives or stories but think about how gender intersects with whole other experiences around cultural background, religion, ability, sexuality. I mean all those things are in the mix whenever we think about these issues. But I think it’s really important, gender being quite powerful shaper of experience, that we need to think about to actually be useful and effective.
Sophie Guy [00:02:18] What does engagement of fathers look like then when it’s going well?
David Tully [00:02:22] Well, I think engagement when it goes well, when there’s a really good sense that you’ve really engaged them as a person. That you have a good sense of their history, why being a parent is important to them, that you’ve got a good sense of their values, their ethic. What, well yeah what’s really driving this process for them as well, that then you can then use that to transform into some sort of change momentum or energy. So it’s about really knowing the person, getting a good sense of them, but also feeling like the work’s collaborative, that they’re engaged. And particularly because we’re talking about men as fathers that really there’s a sense of somehow the child’s need being very central in the process and the man’s willing to be, take on parts of the work where it might be a little bit more challenging because they really want to be a better father. And that’s why they’re there.
David Tully [00:03:12] So that’s the sort of the things when it feels like to me that it’s working well. And my sense is, not for all men but the majority of men, once they get through those first hurdles of engaging, and their worries about what might happen and what we might do to them and their concerns about that process, they actually really enjoy it. Like it’s a space that they might not have had a lot of time in their life to be talk, thinking in reflective ways about being a dad, being a man, and their own health and wellbeing. Once that space is created, they really enjoy it. But that, the trick is to create that space. And so some of that to me, some of those really important piece of this, again as I said, to be to really engage them in a holistic way about what’s important to them. What’s their values. Why do they like being a dad. What’s good about it. What’s tricky about it. To get a good social history, to then use that to sort of challenge some of the more things that might have brought them there, to the support and service. The things they are struggling with around the kids’ behaviour or their own wellbeing while they’re trying to be a parent, those sort of issues as well.
Sophie Guy [00:04:16] Well, let’s shift now to talk more specifically about your experience working in the family violence space. There’s some that might say that men who’ve been violent don’t deserve support in this way or support services and that perhaps, you know, it’s really an issue for the criminal justice system. Can you talk to that?
David Tully [00:04:37] Like I think the important thing is, to start the conversation, is obviously we work in a space, particularly around supports around families and children of family violence, where there isn’t a lot of resources. So I think that actually on one level sets a context where those sort of discussions become quite often, you know, about, oh well this is taking resources away. So, I mean, the way I try to think about it, which helps me, is let’s let’s not, let let’s find some ways to join together to actually argue about, we need a bigger. Let’s not argue about the cake, how do we make a bigger cake.
David Tully [00:05:09] And equally, you know, I think the work’s not about saying that we shouldn’t have consequences for behaviour, particularly around violence and particularly violence that affects children. But what are we actually gonna also do to create change. Because we can then just rely on the criminal justice system or our child protection systems and as I said, I mean, they all have a role to play. But if we actually don’t find ways of engaging men, working through some of these issues, one, I’m not that confident that, you know, those systems themselves create change as well. But secondly, that that that has consequences for communities as well. Like many states, within South Australia we’re facing a massive increase in our corrections budget. It’s very expensive. We also know that particularly around family violence issues, that a period in jail may create a period of safety for the women and children. We know that it doesn’t in and of itself change behaviour. In fact, that actually jail can be a place where violent and attitudes around women and children that aren’t that helpful can actually grow and flourish and be supported as well.
David Tully [00:06:14] So to me, it’s not saying that, you know, obviously that criminal justice and the child protection systems are really important, but what else can we do that can work alongside those systems that can create some opportunities to change? And to go back to that earlier point, how do we actually create a situation where we’re not arguing about very limited resources in this space, but saying, look, we need to have a much more holistic, preventative attitude at a government, policy, and a funding level to tackle these issues. The cost of family domestic violence is massive. Both at a social level, but even the long term consequences around mental health for children and young people. So to be able to work with one man and even create some level of change, that ripple effects even of itself is worth it. So, yeah.
David Tully [00:06:59] But I’m, you know, I I’m comfortable having that discussion. And I think any practitioner who works with men needs to be able to be comfortable to have that discussion about why you’re doing this work with men, and when we have, you know, we have waiting lists to work with women and children, why are we doing this? I think it’s a, it’s an important ethical tension we should be comfortable having. But at the same time, feel comfortable that we’re trying to create an area of practice that is about preventative. That is about creating opportunities for men to create change. But also it is about trying to create outcomes for women and children as well, which is really important as well.
Sophie Guy [00:07:34] Yeah, perhaps you could talk a little bit more about that. So if there is a role for providing support, behaviour change or services like that. Could you talk a bit about why this is important for child social and emotional wellbeing?
David Tully [00:07:49] Well, I mean there. We’ve got to a stage, I think, from a research perspective, but also I think from an ethical perspective that having children exposed to family violence and being subjected to family violence has such dramatic effects on their emotional, social, educational, long term mental health outcomes that to avoid the the obvious part about, well needing to look how we can actually look to change these issues, particularly around men’s behaviour, becomes really important. As I said earlier, I’ve worked a lot with around children who’ve been affected by physical, emotional violence, sexual violence, and seen those quite devastating effects in their lives. To know that, we also need to actually find some ways of also preventing these issues. From either continuing to occur or worsening, as well.
David Tully [00:08:44] And that’s sort of what led me to this work. It wasn’t necessarily that i necessarily started, oh well, I want to work with men around violence. It was really about working with children who’ve been affected by violence. And then realising that there there’s this person who’s hugely influential over the family life, but also even on my therapeutic outcomes. Like you respond to a child who is experiencing trauma, you can provide great ways of helping them manage and cope with and respond to some of those effects of that trauma. But if the trauma keeps continuing and we just let let the child continue back into that. It didn’t sort of make sense. So that’s what led me to sort of being interested in trying to engage men who are using violence in their family relationships to do things differently. So that that’s sort of what led me there in the work.
Sophie Guy [00:09:29] Mm hmm, okay. And so when you’re you’re in, you’re sitting with a man who’s there because he’s he’s been violent towards his partner, towards his children. What does that actually look like? What does engagement look like in that situation?
David Tully [00:09:45] So I think the most important thing is that I need to be very clear what I’m trying to achieve, you know. And realising that this this is, this is a process that will take some time. But very much the focus is very much around trying to engage him to then look at the issue, the violence. That violence is the focus of what we’re trying to do in the counselling or the intervention or the group or the telephone support, or whatever we’re doing. That’s what we’re trying to focus. But to know that that we need to be able to sequence that work in a way where it’s actually going to provide him the best possibility to step into it as well. So it’s a real balance between the ethics of knowing the effects of his violence and wanting to be able to move quickly, but also understanding that that’s, there will need a sequence of sort of interventions that will maximise the possibility of him, one, staying engaged with that process, actually using some of the things that we’ve talked about. And thirdly, start to be able to understand and self-manage this behaviour. Because that’s the ultimate goal, I think, of any work is that, it’s not about us help helping him notice, oh, how did that affect your kid? That he would then be able to self-identify that. Oh I actually I start to notice when I raise my voice that Sarah, my daughter, eyes go down to the ground and she looks scared. And I never noticed that before. Now I’m noticing that. So we’re, that’s where we want to be able to go but realizing that this can be a quite challenging process. And there’s a lot of things that are supporting this man’s attitudes and beliefs that support his violence and been part of his life for a very long time. So we need to be able to sequence it.
David Tully [00:11:18] So what I’m interested in initially is trying to engage the man and actually find out why this is important to him. You know, what’s at stake here? What’s, what about his family or his situation that is leading to this being important to him? Also, I’m quite interested in asking questions such as, how does your violence affect you? What impact has has it has on your life? Because what I’m trying to do is create a language or his capacity to start to, start to reflect on his own use of violence. And often we talk in this area, there’s a lot of what we call externalizing of responsibilities, or she made me, this made, it happened. Or if if my kid hadn’t broke the window, I wouldn’t have got angry. But what’s also important is it’s a lot of these men, there’s a self-belief system that they can’t do things differently. And one of the more interesting parts we often get to the counselling and the group work, is when men articulate a statement such as, if I don’t yell and I don’t get angry, I don’t know how to be a dad. That’s that’s almost like their road map for dealing with children. When the behaviour gets like this, I get angry and I don’t know what else to do. And we know that the men do know other things to do, but that often that belief system is what’s having them not noticing their different ways of being a parent and dealing with these issues.
David Tully [00:12:41] So that’s where we want to be able to go but we need to be able to engage that. Because what we recognise is when we ask a man to think about his use of violence, that he’s probably going to be experiencing quite contradictory cognitive and emotional responses of that. Because part of him might be wanting to make it go away and blame other people. Part of even more worse might be feeling really a sense of shame about what he’s done. You know, really hard emotions and and remembering some of the things he’s done. Like so that question about, what’s it like to see your daughter scared of you? Was does it mean that you’ve come here and told me that? Because you didn’t need to tell me that Sarah was scared of you. What did it take to come here and share with that? Because, you know, you could’ve been worried I could have judge you and I could have made you feel really rotten about doing that. So what allowed you to tell me that your daughter is scared of you? So that’s what we’re interested in doing, you know, showing he’s engaged, to actually create a quite more solid base to then raise the more challenging parts of the work, which is really helping the man not focus on other people, but actually start to focus on his own working himself up process. What’s going on from him is really important to establish a basis to do that. And it’s also more likely for him to engage, keep engaging over a period of time. Because, you know, the reality is this process does take time. It’s not a one hour response. This is a process that’s going to take often years to keep him engaged in self-reflection.
Sophie Guy [00:14:09] How do you keep the needs of children and perhaps the partner visible at the same time while you’re doing this work?
David Tully [00:14:17] Yeah and I think that’s really the critic, one of the critical balances in the work. And if we don’t have a good understanding of the effects of violence on women and children, boys’ and girls’ lives, we can get lost in that process. Because as I said there’s a real inclination when a man’s talking about his use of violence to use some of the thinking and emotional strategies to make it go away. Because that’s how he’s managed to maintain himself in this behaviour for a period of time. So we need to be able to be quite aware of that to understand that, how that behaviour has affected women and children. You know, so there’s a number of different ways to do that. For me, I know it’s important that my work’s not done in isolation from people working with women and children affected by violence all the time. I’m hearing that as much as I’m hearing the stories for men. I think it’s also really important that where possible, we either get information or work alongside people who might be working with other members of the family.
David Tully [00:15:10] But it, but it’s it’s also knowing that there’s more to this man than just his minimisations and denial and blame. That there’s part of him that knows what he’s done. There’s parts of him that has those memories. He’s seen what he’s done. He knows what he’s done. That he can access that, that process. And also a belief that that actually is not just important in terms of an account, a political accountability, but actually around effective therapeutic intervention for him. To be able to recall and think about some of his actions and talk about them so we can understand how we got there, is important part of his therapeutic process. It’s useful for all parties, but also its useful for the man from that political accountability. But it’s also about effective sort of psychological change process. To remember what that look of terror on that child’s face meant. Because when he’s going through a process of working himself up, we need to find things that are going to slow that down and ground him. And maybe that look on that, his daughter’s face might be the thing that slows him down. So that that I think is important. But I think the other part of it is always to be in conversations where you’re hearing about what’s going on for women and children, boys and girls in this work, because it’s very easy just to get lost in a bubble, I think, around working with men. So it’s important that that works always grounded in the realities of it as well.
Sophie Guy [00:16:32] So is, is keeping the children or the partners sort of present, is that something that needs to go on moment to moment in a session? Or is it just, sort of, part of the broader picture over time as you’re working with men?
David Tully [00:16:48] Yeah, it’s funny. As we’re talking, I remember my, one of my first ever supervisors, wasn’t about working with men, we were doing work around child abuse. She, she always had this idea that somehow imagine the child or the woman in the room, they’re not not physically, but as a as an audience to what you’re saying. And I always had used that as a way of structuring my sort of thinking. I think it’s to be present, it’s not gonna be present always in the conversation. But I think it’s always thinking, well, what what is this actually going to mean for partners and children? What what’s this? Is this bit of work we just did really going to be, have meaning for their lives? And am I sequencing the work in a way I think that will allow me to eventually get to a place where we can do some more more the more challenging, you know, that high support, high challenge stuff. Or are we, sort of, just losing focus and I’m just following some of his patterns of making it go away in the therapy. Because it’s not an easy thing to think about your child afraid of you. It’s not an easy thing to think about a partner who is scared of you. You know, the these aren’t easy things to do, but very important within the work. So yeah, I think that’s how I do it. Different practitioners that do it different ways, but I think it’s important.
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Narrator [00:18:04] You’re listening to an Emerging Minds podcast.
Sophie Guy [00:18:10] So I was also thinking about how human relationships are complex and dynamics and families, of course, where violence occurs must be, you know, very complex as well. So I’m wondering when maybe there’s situations where you also have concerns about the mother’s parenting or, you know, it’s more complex than just the violent father. How how does that go?
David Tully [00:18:35] Well, I think I mean, I think it’s important. And the reality for people who work out in the field, in the practice, that’s there’s always multiple complex layers to this. It’s not just as simple as a man and his behaviour. The first bit, though, is sort of then thinking about how that violence might be affecting the whole family, what I call ecology. You know, what’s going on in that family. How does it influence the parenting styles of what’s going on in the family? So there’s not diminishing that, but it’s knowing that, you know, sure, there’s gonna be families where there’s going to be high level of conflict. Harsher than, harsh parental sort of beliefs and attitudes that are going on. There’s gonna be all those sort of layers. So for me, the important thing though, is I don’t particularly I’m sitting working with the man, that I don’t get, we don’t get lost in all that. That ultimately, that probably none of that’s actually going to get better while his violence is still a present feature in that family. You know, so if it’s, oh well yes my my wife’s not very good at being a parent and therefore, you know, I have to step in and be really harsh because she’s depressed and she’s drunk, drinking or whatever. You’ve got to just watch because it can, that can, you can run into that sort of story about what the problem is as well.
David Tully [00:19:47] But equally, you know, it’s not saying that that, you know, if we think in terms of layered responsibilities, there’s still as adults, there’s a power difference between adults and children we need to think about. And as a parent there are some responsibilities. But I think it’s important to understand also, particularly around families, domestic violence, when when it’s occurring, it affects all parts of the family. And some of the symptoms we might be feeling of the effects of violence might be the other problems, and I think that’s often what we unfortunately see as a story that comes out of child protection. Oh, we’ve got a mother who’s severely depressed, not able to get the kids to school and, you know, she needs to change sort of stuff, as opposed to well, what else is going on. How do we think about the role of the father? And if there’s violence there as well. Yeah, I think it’s not saying that the man’s responsible for all the problems. Kids are kids and they have issues. But what the really, I think the simple line is, none of this is going to get better while violence is occurring. So really making that the focus of the therapeutic work as well.
David Tully [00:20:47] It’s also then finding ways to get in and provide other supports for women and children at the same time. And some of that might be around the effects of violence. Some of it might be around parenting. Some of it might be around drug and alcohol,or other drug and alcohol support. It might be around mental health supports as well, at the same time. Because yeah, we deal with families who’ve got lots of history and you know, also for a lot of those families the violence has been intergenerational, particularly working in some communities where violence has been part of their experience before they’ve come to Australia. For Aboriginal communities where violence is, structural violence is still occurring. You know, there’s all these other layers of violence that’s occurring within families as well. But particularly when I’m working with, it’s about keeping the focus there. Because that’s where I think, we’ve probably got the most opportunity to create change for that family as well as.
Sophie Guy [00:21:42] I was also a little bit curious about, you know, we often, the most obvious thing is physical forms of violence. But of course, the broad definitions of family violence include, or domestic violence, include emotional forms of abuse, psychological, spiritual forms of abuse. I was sort of curious to know a little bit about that. I mean, I guess that was my own curiosity is, are you dealing with that as well?
David Tully [00:22:07] Yeah, definitely. And I think because because often when when men engage in the process and it’s sort of other, that you might have one, or a couple of signature pieces of things that have happened. Oh, there was this one time when I did this. Or, I pushed her or, you know, that’s obviously a physical thing. What I’m, I guess, where I know where the work goes is we’re trying to help the men see that this is not just an instance, this is a pattern. And those patterns aren’t just about the physical actions. That there’s a broad pattern of, you know, I broadly see it more, a broad pattern of what I call social emotional responsibilities around family and wellbeing. There’s a bigger pattern of what’s going on that we need to eventually pull the lens back so we can start to see all of it. So it is recognizing that that, you know, the violence isn’t just physical. Controlling behaviours don’t necessarily have to occur through physical violence. And often there’s constant surveillance and controlling things that are going on that are affecting the family’s wellbeing that we need to look at.
David Tully [00:23:10] But as I said, but often you start with just the signature piece. Oh, well this is a problem because my wife went to her sister’s because I did this thing. But I think the the social, sorry the emotional, verbal stuff is really important as well. But see what sits behind that is a broader sort of understanding of the way, almost a blueprint of the way that relationships work that these men are often operating from. And it’s also a belief that, you know, generally speaking, these men aren’t deviant from a social norms. They’re actually overcompliant with certain script of what it is to be a man in a relationship and to be a partner. So to be able to pull back and look at those those wider practices in relationship’s really quite important as well. But it can be hard because often, you know, it’s much easier around certain behaviours. Oh, well that is violence because the police were called and there was there was a, there’s a physical contact. It can be often harder and often men will say, oh well, yeah, but she yells back as good as I do, so therefore, you know, I can’t stop until she stops. You bump up against some of those sort of issues as well.
David Tully [00:24:16] But when we’re, what we take the men through in terms of process of understanding some of the the build up towards some of the incidents, they start to identify that there’s other behaviours that are problematic. And the fact that that the the actual incident might be in the beginning of the counselling, the behaviours that happened before are just as much as a problem, you know. Where they start to think certain things about their partners and kids, that they start to then say things from those belief systems. That’s as much as a problem as the actual incidents themselves. And that’s why, as I said earlier, the change process is a longer one than just, you know, here’s some skills not to use physical violence. It’s about changing the whole script around family relationships that the man’s just lived from, and been on one level often very compliant with, that needs to shift and change as well. So it’s a it’s a broader change. Yes.
Sophie Guy [00:25:09] So you’ve worked in this space for about twenty years. Can men who’ve been violent, use domestic violence, can they change?
David Tully [00:25:21] In a very simple response, yes. And I think that’s the important part of this. That we. It’s important, you know, and I think it’s important we hold on to some scepticism or or thoughtfulness about whether men are making change. But most definitely they can. Where we really need to understand is, is what do we need to look for for men who are making change. Which men are making some changes and which men are making as not many changes. And usually when I get asked this, that’s usually what I, the way I describe it. Like if I’m having or supporting someone whose working with a partner, I am. You know, like, will my partner change, he’s come to three sessions? I’d say, well, the reality is some men do change, some make some changes and some don’t. So what what are you noticing about his behaviour? That’s really important. But I think, on the other hand, because those stories of change aren’t available in our community. Aren’t something that is circulating. I think it actually helps keep this issue even more entrenched. That men aren’t necessarily going to come forward and ask for help. For one, that they, I think it’s important that they are concerned that, you know, what are we going to think about it as a service provider? I don’t want to be seen as a wife beater. I don’t want to be seen as a child abuser. I don’t want to have people judge me.
David Tully [00:26:36] And, you know, and for some of the men we work with, they’ve had other experiences in their life where they do think people don’t think well of them. They might have had their own experience around developmental trauma where they do sense a shame around identity. So it’s about how we engage, be really clear and focus on the behaviour, but understand that it’s not an easy process for men to come forward. So I am interested in us being able to, sort of, create a more possible story around change for men. Because we do want them to come forward. I mean, even if our goal was only. If you only want to ethically divide out women and children, boys and girls as a concern, w’re either going rely on the criminal justice system to fix it all up and spend massive amounts of money and probably not always get there. Even if we just ethically are only focussed there, we’ll still want men to come forward. Also, ethically for me, it’s about, you know, having some hope for our, for men. And I think we are in a process where some of those cultural shifts are happening. I mean, even from 20 years ago when I started this, men are much more interested in discussions around parenting, being a dad, you know, in a much more public way than they were. So there’s shifts and change on. But to do that I think we do need to be able to create a sense that hope is possible. And to find ways of languaging these issues that makes it possible for men to put their hand up and say, I have this issue.
Sophie Guy [00:27:55] It certainly is hard to get positive stories or good news stories out there. So I’m glad we ended on that. I think that was a good and good discussion to finish with. So, thank you very much for your time, David. I really appreciate it.
David Tully [00:28:12] It was a really good conversation. Thank you.
Sophie Guy [00:28:14] Thank you.
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