Transcript for
Skills for working with dads in the early years of parenting – part one
Mark Hoppe (00:00): That’s tuning into the needs of the partner at that time, like having that be in the man’s picture, being aware of where the baby’s at and what a baby’s needs might be, and self-care. Trying to talk to the man about being actively engaged as a parent, even in those early stages, like where can you show up as a parent, but in what ways can you show up and be supportive in that role? So it’s not just that sort of thing, oh, well, it’s a baby and that’s mum’s gig, and I go to work or do whatever I do. Know that there’s an active parenting role, however that might look.
Narrator (00:35): Welcome to the Emerging Minds podcast.
Vicki Mansfield (00:40): Hi everyone, my name’s Vicki Mansfield. Welcome to episode one of this two-part Emerging Minds podcast series about practise skills for working with dads. Recently, Emerging Minds interviewed Roger Currie and Mark Hoppe from Family Support Newcastle, for the development of our Practise strategies for formulation: Infant and toddler course. This course is all about ways to bring your professional expertise, together with the family’s know-how, to develop a shared understanding of the infant or toddler’s experience.
(01:13): In part one of our conversation, Roger and Mark reflect on the importance of supporting dads in their transition to parenthood, how they work with dads to tune into infants and toddlers needs, and their practise experience of group work with dads, where they aim to model safety, support vulnerability, and build social connections. Welcome Roger and Mark. To start us off, Mark, can you tell us a little bit about your role?
Mark Hoppe (01:40): The majority of my role is with separated dads, so working with dads that might be going through the separation process or maybe they’re going through mediation or court process. And part of my role, I suppose, is to really keep the kids central to that. So often there’s conflict in those situations. So, it’s really just trying to support the men in remaining focused on how that is for the kids, and their role as a dad rather than their role as a partner, and the conflict between themselves and their ex-partner. Often there’s an emotional support component for the man. It might be really challenging, and of course there’s always a degree of looking for safety concerns for the man themselves, and for the women and children in their life.
Vicki Mansfield (02:24): And Roger, what about your role?
Roger Currie (02:26): So I predominantly work with men, but I can work with the families, so around any issues with parenting, self-care for the dad, and case management, if there’s any other issues that they might need help with, referring them onto other places, other support services, if we’re unable to do it.
Vicki Mansfield (02:44): So how is it that dads arrive to your service?
Roger Currie (02:48): So they can get referred by all sorts of services, GPs, other family workers, hospitals, schools, and of course they can self-refer. Sometimes they’ve heard about us through the grapevine somewhere, so they’ll call us or they’ll turn up at the front door even, asking for support.
Vicki Mansfield (03:03): From your experience, when a practitioner’s working with a new dad, what’s important to be curious about or to explore with dads?
Roger Currie (03:12): I guess, just their expectations. I think when we are pregnant for the first time, we’ve got lots of hopes and dreams for our children or our child, whether we’re aware of those or not. I also think working with mum, supporting her and what she needs. It’s a huge transition when a baby comes along, for everybody, even extended family. So it’s just being aware of all the, yeah, roles, expectations, what’s going to be required, what’s going to be needed, and just how we’re going to keep the baby safe and secure, and support that baby’s development not for just now, but into the future.
Vicki Mansfield (03:44): And so it’s building a new relationship for dads in lots of ways, isn’t that?
Roger Currie (03:49): So it’s building the relationship with the child, but also renegotiating, I suppose you could say, the relationship between mum and dad, because things change and so how do we navigate that? So supporting dad around being proactive in that process rather than just standing back, finding ways that we can support, and help, and learn, and get excited as well. From the dad’s point of view, what are you excited about?
Mark Hoppe (04:12): Even just having that awareness that it is a big life change, I think that it can be very, it’s a challenging period and I think we don’t necessarily, as a society talk enough about that. So people, oh, you’ve got a baby, that’s wonderful, but actually it is a really challenging time. So just conveying that that’s normal, that challenge will come up and that’s normal. I guess, it’s tuning into the needs of the partner at that time, having that be in the man’s picture, being aware of where the baby’s at and what a baby’s needs might be, and self-care. And then I think also, there’s just all that classic stuff of sleep. Sleep becomes an issue. Trying to talk to the man about being actively engaged as a parent, even in those early stages, like where can you show up as a parent, but in what ways can you show up and be supportive in that role?
(05:01): So it’s not just that sort of thing, oh, well, it’s a baby and that’s mum’s gig and I go to work or do whatever I do, but know that there’s an active parenting role, however that might look. Everyone looks at it as a beautiful time and it is, but it’s also really challenging and they’re big changes. And so it’s just making space for that and, I guess, normalising that as well, because I think probably men, it’s a generalisation, but be perhaps less inclined to talk about those things or to think that, oh, I should have this all together already.
Vicki Mansfield (05:33): I’m wondering, when you’re working with dads in that early infancy and toddler stage, what might be important to be curious about?
Roger Currie (05:44): I think it’s, there’s things that need to be done during the day with the family. We’ve got things that we need to get done, whether it’s going to school or getting other siblings out and about, but it’s also trying to take a break and step back and say, “How was everybody travelling? How are the children travelling?” And even allowing the children to run some of the stuff. When they’re playing, dads, I think, can often get quite boisterous and want to run the game or whatever, but sometimes it’s just good to let the child take over, particularly with young children. Ask questions about how do you do that, rather than just do it for them, so you just allow… And, yeah, just being mindful that the child is a, even though they’re little, they’ve got their own entity, and their own experiences, and they want to experience life, and learn, and grow. And it’s much easier to do that when you’ve got somebody in your corner supporting you through that, rather than telling you what to do all the time.
(06:33): I think an example that pops to mind is sometimes when our children present us with beautiful artworks and we are struggling to understand what the heck it is. And so you ask them, “What is it?” And I think they look at you like, can’t you see it? It’s a dog, or it’s a dragon, or something or other. And I think in that example there, it’s more, tell me about it rather than, what is it? Because that can be very jarring for a child, because they know what it is. So tell me about that. So allowing them to talk about what they’ve done.
Vicki Mansfield (06:58): There’s some research now that talks about how important rough and tumble play can be. So you can get a bit too boisterous and maybe take over, but yeah, is that an area that you’ve ever had conversations with dads about? That rough and tumble or the wrestling, the risk-taking play.
Roger Currie (07:18): Yeah, I think again, it’s one of those areas where it’s great for development where dads can often want to win. I think dads can be very competitive, but dad needs to model losing as well as winning. So allowing the children to win a few games. And I also think that rough and tumble stuff is getting kids to understand their strength and controlling that strength, but you’re just learning about what the developing body and how it all works. And not only their muscles and their body, but also how their head’s working. Sometimes it’s emotional and big, strong emotions will pop up when you lose, and dad needs to support that rather than get angry with it. So there’s a lot of developmental stuff that can go on with that play. That’s really important stuff.
Vicki Mansfield (08:02): Mark, in your role, working with dads after separation, what might conversations, about how dads are important to their kids’ development, look and sound like?
Mark Hoppe (08:12): The only one that’s coming to mind is a situation where someone hadn’t had connection with their child and they were reconnecting after a period of that child being removed, and it was a supervised visit. And it was really just about being aware of what that child’s experience might’ve been, what the child would be expecting or how they’re going to be showing up, and tuning into, and meeting the child where they’re at. I think part of it always is around, there’s a listening in it. I guess, I mean, they’re almost energetic listening, like a feeling into where the child’s at and meeting them where they are, rather than coming at it from where dad’s at, if you know what I mean.
(08:53): I think it’s possible sometimes to parent from that place where, and we’re not aware of it, but it’s about our needs, in an, ah, here’s this little… And it’s just being aware that to really stay in that parenting role, and what’s that child need, and reading where they’re at, and responding, and that safety is key. And particularly in the situation I was referring to, that that child may feel a bit unsafe and unfamiliar. So how do we create that sense of safety and familiarity?
Vicki Mansfield (09:21): So yeah, it sounds like you’re helping them think about what it’s like to be in the kids’ shoes in some ways.
Mark Hoppe (09:26): Yeah, I think that’s a huge part of it throughout the whole process, and really recognising that this little person has their own world, and their own experience, and their own interiority, that they’re not just an extension of us and an object in our awareness, but they’ve got their own experience. And how can we tune into what that might be, and as you say, get into their shoes and respond to that.
Vicki Mansfield (09:53): Awesome, thank you. I know both of you also provide a few different types of groups for dad. What are some of the strengths of working in groups?
Mark Hoppe (10:04): Yeah, I love working in groups with men. I think one of the strengths is the commonality that gets experienced, that when you get a group of men together that there can be this sense of, oh, yeah, I have that experience too, and I’ve had that. And the sense of connection and, yeah, commonality that comes with that, that I think is really settling for men or settling for anybody. But I think the other thing is that I don’t know that men get a lot of those opportunities to be honest, in those ways. I think the group space also can create, if it’s done well and there’s safety, it can create opportunities for vulnerability which tend to work then because men can be at very different stages of that. But being in a group space where there might be one or two people starting to go there, it’s an invitation, and whether they take it up then or not, it can start a ball rolling. So yeah, those are the things I really like about it, and I think there’s just great potential for growth and transformation in that space because of those things.
Vicki Mansfield (11:13): So when you’re starting out with a group, what kind of things are you keeping in mind or that help you model, again, in a group?
Mark Hoppe (11:23): Yeah. There’s all the classic, standard group work things, of agreements, and we do things like, okay, well, what are your children’s names? And we may, for example, write them on a bit of paper that gets brought into the room. So it becomes more our space. And the group agreements are all about safety and respecting. It’s kind of modelling, I think, that behaviour. And for me, what that’s very much about is unconditional positive regard. And in the men’s space, particularly if we’re talking about, say for example, if there’s been domestic and family violence, there’s always a conversation about collusion. And so if I’m talking about unconditional positive regard, it automatically invites that conversation. My view of it is, collusion is something that happens with a behaviour or a viewpoint. So you know how it is, it’s always like this, and I can collude with that by going, “Yeah, I know what you mean,” but unconditional positive regard, for me, isn’t collusion.
(12:17): That’s something that’s offered to the person, that really says, “Regardless of the behaviour and the viewpoint, you as a being are okay.” So there’s a subtle difference. So I guess it’s going in with that view and, I guess, modelling that. And I think the other thing we try and do a little bit of as well, is not come from that expert position. Like if we’re in a parenting group, well, I’m a parent, and so we include ourselves in that. So when we do rounds around the group, we’ll tend to be engaged in that as well and say, “Well, for me, A, B, and C,” and I think that tends to flatten, do you know what I mean? Any sense of hierarchy or expertness, which I think contributes to that as well.
Vicki Mansfield (12:58): I also wonder, Roger, do you feel that group work builds up a sense of social support for men?
Roger Currie (13:04): Yeah, some of our dads mentioned, towards the end of the groups, that they’d like to keep the connection with some of the other guys. A lot of them will say, “What’s next? Can we do another group?” And we also offer to the dads that come to the group, we might not have met them before, that we can offer one-on-one support. So a lot of them come in through that gateway where they are able to get it, more support with whatever they’re going through, dealing with that.
Vicki Mansfield (13:27): And one of the groups, I think, is called Understanding Dads.
Roger Currie (13:32): That was one of the ones that me and Mark put together to help dads understand themselves. I think if you can understand yourself and how you operate, how you function, what you have challenges with, what you enjoy, if you become more aware of that, then you’re more able to, yeah, I guess, support yourself. A lot of us can spend our lives on automatic pilot. You get up, you go to work, you come home, you go to bed, it’s all mundane. Whereas if we understand ourselves a lot better, and how we operate and function, hopefully we can get a bit more enjoyment out of life.
(14:02): So we’ve structured that group to look at the brain and how we function as a being. We also look at patriarchy, look at men’s issues and those sorts of things, and then look at how can we actually look after ourselves? Again, we can often get stressed from parenting, from our relationships, from work, and we end up at the pub or those sorts of things to… Or watching the footy. Nothing wrong with that, but we can spend a lot of time doing that, whereas we look at other ways of self-care that will hopefully support our system to be able to calm down. And when our system’s calm, we can function a lot better.
Vicki Mansfield (14:42): And if I was a fly on the wall for a self-care conversation in a group, what might it look like?
Roger Currie (14:48): One of the things that we often talk about is access to nature. There’s a lot of research coming out at the moment where that’s really beneficial, but everybody’s different. Some people want to go and spend time in the bush, other people prefer the ocean. So it’s just, how do we create that for you as an individual and how do you access nature?
Vicki Mansfield (15:09): So it’s that linking, you said, getting to know yourself and understand what helps make you tick, but also thinking about what new opportunities or ways of interacting and being.
(15:21): Thank you so much Roger and Mark for sharing with us some really important considerations about how to keep infants and toddlers in mind when supporting dads in their parenting role. And thank you for sharing your practise wisdom about group work with dads. I look forward to delving into more practise skills with you both in part two.
Narrator (15:43): Visit our website at www.emergingminds.com.au, to access a range of resources to assist your practise. Brought to you by The National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health, led by Emerging Minds. The National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health, under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.