Transcript for
Staying connected with your children while navigating child protection
Narrator (00:02):
Welcome to the Emerging Minds Families podcast.
Alicia Ranford (Host) (00:06):
Hi, I’m Alicia Ranford and you’re listening to an Emerging Minds Families podcast. Before we start, we’d like to pay our respects to the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is recorded today, the Kaurna people of the Adelaide Plains. We also pay respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, their ancestors, and elders past, present, and emerging from the different First Nations across Australia. In today’s episode, we will be talking about the complex nature of children who have been removed from their families through the child protection system. If you feel this topic may bring up difficult feelings for you, perhaps give this week a miss and join us next fortnight, or you can find resources for support in our show notes. For many of us, the relationships we have in our lives provide a sense of belonging. They can help fulfil us and enrich us.
(00:55):
As time passes and we navigate the ups and downs of life, relationships can also change. And when we lose connection with the people who matter to us, it can be painful. Today I’m talking with Flick. She’s a mother of four and knows firsthand the challenges of maintaining connections through difficult times. Flick has joined us previously as our very first guest on the Emerging Minds Families podcast channel where we talked about learning to parent when you weren’t parented well yourself. And if you haven’t already checked this one out, I’d highly recommend it. Welcome, Flick. Thank you so much for joining us again.
Flick Kime (Guest) (01:28):
Thanks for having me back.
Alicia Ranford (Host) (01:30):
Could you start by telling us a little bit about your experience and how you came to be separated from your son?
Flick Kime (Guest) (01:36):
My life begins with my mom being abandoned at six weeks old and put into the child protection system and not knowing her family until she was 21, which then leads into myself being in child protection as a teenager. And unfortunately, my children, so three generations now, have been in the child protection system. And I believe it is around not having that healthy role model to help teach you and guide you along the way to parent. Also, the background of drugs and alcohol, DV, unhealthy relationships, and homelessness led to the removal of my children. But I do believe today that without the drugs and alcohol and DV and unhealthy relationships, I would’ve still been in the same spot because I didn’t know how to parent from a young age of 17. So I guess that’s a little bit of a background. There’s no excuses. That’s just how life worked out with our family, but it’s about now, how do we bring our family together and live in the most healthiest way?
Alicia Ranford (Host) (02:37):
And why do you feel it was important to you that you remained connected to him during this time?
Flick Kime (Guest) (02:43):
I guess at first I thought it was really important because it was about my emotions, which I didn’t realise at the time. I felt because I wanted to see my son, that was what was best. And with years of working through this system, what I see today, 12 years on, I find it really important because it’s about his needs and what he actually needs, not what I need as a mother and my emotional field. It’s being navigated by my little boy, or now a big boy, and just backing him all the way.
Alicia Ranford (Host) (03:11):
The experience of separation by child protection is different for every family and child, but what do you think parents in this situation should consider when looking to remain connected with their child who is in care?
Flick Kime (Guest) (03:23):
I think the biggest thing to look out for is what does the child want? What actions are the child displaying? How can you meet your children’s needs? I found with myself and other families, when a child’s in the system and they’re having family time once a month for maybe two hours, parents feel like there’s no space for them. And what I found was using them two hours wisely to parent, so opportunities where you can parent and stay connected, and how do you do that stuff?
(03:54):
I think as a parent, we had this grand idea that we can only be connected to our child if our child’s living underneath our roof and we’re in this routine where I was able to stay connected with my son and do family history with him in a park once every month, take a box down to the park and draw up with some photos and describe who was who in our family.
(04:15):
So making the most of the time when I got to see him face-to-face and then trying to have phone calls, video chat, play games online with him, they’re not as huge as seeing each other in person, but I do believe, especially as he gets older, so indirect stuff means more to him and he gets more excited if it’s through gaming or on the phone where it’s in his time and he can stop when he wants. He’s not feeling forced or pressured.
Alicia Ranford (Host) (04:43):
So for you, Flick, can you describe what this journey of reconnection was like for you and your son?
Flick Kime (Guest) (04:49):
Yeah, look, it’s so many mixed emotions to it. My son was removed at 11 months old and he’s now 13, so it’s been a very huge rollercoaster. And over the last 12 years, it’s been really happy, but it’s been really horrendous and sad at times as well. I’m trying to navigate knowing my son. He’s been brought up in a different household in a different dial of parenting. He doesn’t really know who I am, so it’s been really confusing and really hard, but at the same time, it’s been really rewarding.
(05:24):
And I guess what I’m trying to get to, I wouldn’t have it any other way. It’s really given us time to actually stop and get to know each other. It hasn’t been on the rush or on the fly, like my daily household at home where everyone’s rushing to do what they need to do for the day. When I see my little boy, we can actually sit and connect and just have a bit of peace.
Alicia Ranford (Host) (05:44):
Was it a process for you to be ready to reconnect as much as it being what’s right for him?
Flick Kime (Guest) (05:51):
Yeah. I think through this journey with the reconnection, it wasn’t just about that me and him had space. So it’s trying to navigate child protection system of caseworkers, case managers, foster parents, different locations. So that was a challenge within itself. But then very early on, reconnecting with him, it looks very different to how I connected with him today, and that’s due to me having a support network and therapy and different things go on for me to understand myself and understand what my child actually needs more than someone that presents as a mother.
(06:26):
So I think with me looking at myself and why am I connecting with my son, how I’m doing it, is it the best interest for him or is that for me, today, it looks very different and more healthy because it is about him and his needs. So if he doesn’t want to see me, that is okay. That’s what he needs for the day. I still get sad and I still get upset when he doesn’t want to speak to me or see me, but I don’t force that stuff anymore. And for so long I just kept going into meeting after meeting saying, “I want to see my son more. I need to speak to him on the phone. I need this, I need that.” And it was all about me, which I didn’t realise. And now I’m able to sit in meetings and talk about what my son needs because I’m hearing him now.
Alicia Ranford (Host) (07:07):
That’s very special that you’ve been able to reflect on that, Flick. And I wonder are there people or places that supported you in rebuilding this connection with your son?
Flick Kime (Guest) (07:17):
There’s not many places. Once you tell people that you’ve lost your children to child protection, there’s not many places that really want to have much to do with you, let alone that really support you or advocate for you. And the problem for me was I didn’t understand what was going on. It looked very clear on paper, but in my head, I couldn’t wrap my head around it to actually understand on a head and heart level. So my old supervisor was my advocate and my support person and she would explain to me what was going on.
(07:47):
I explained to her how I was feeling after seeing my son and she just educated me pretty much is what I’m trying to say. And she was just standing there walking alongside this journey of the last four years with me. And at some point, she got honest with me and said some things need to change and done it in a loving kind way. And I was able to look at that and change them things, which then my son could see a different mother and a more emotionally attached mother.
Alicia Ranford (Host) (08:12):
It sounds like you’ve been very inwardly reflective about yourself and equally what’s best for your son.
Flick Kime (Guest) (08:20):
Yeah, definitely because I think it’s very huge that we can think, “What can we do for our children and what’s going to be best,” but if we don’t look within ourself and change patterns and behaviours and defects of character, then nothing’s going to change for my son when seeing me or speaking to me, it’s just going to be the same old and I won’t be able to meet his needs.
(08:41):
So I’ve had to really, obviously, the drugs and alcohol and then look within me and do a lot of my own therapy so then I can actually recognise what my son needs and actually what he actually likes and dislikes. So most of the time now he doesn’t even have to tell me what he doesn’t like or likes, I can recognise that stuff by body language or the way he speaks.
Alicia Ranford (Host) (09:03):
And what a strength of character you’ve shown to get to this point, Flick.
Flick Kime (Guest) (09:07):
It hasn’t been easy, and I always say we need a child protection system, but it’s about how do we bring everybody together for the child. It’s not just one service that can meet my child’s needs, so everyone needs to be at the table. And within that, that’s been a journey of itself and that has shown for my son over the years of not knowing who to speak to, what side, per se, to be on, mom’s side or the department’s side or the carer’s side.
(09:37):
And that’s what I’ve noticed very quickly is that children are really torn about what’s going on and what to say. So how do we make it the most easiest? There is children at home that unfortunately can’t live in that household, but how do we keep them connected to family and to know about their family where it’s safe to do so? Because what we find with children that don’t know their family at all, they go seeking their family at some point, which can be quite more dangerous and hurtful in the long run. So how do we get family known to both the child and the family too? It’s unfair for family to miss out to know about the child that’s in care. So it’s about everybody, just not one person.
Alicia Ranford (Host) (10:19):
And can you share with our listeners some of the creative ways you found to reconnect and then stay connected with your son?
Flick Kime (Guest) (10:26):
Very early on it was literally going into a room that was supervised by another human being, taking notes on how we interacted and in a very boring room and the unnatural environment. And then it went to a park which felt much better. He loves soccer, so he was able to get out and kick the ball and not only interact with me but his siblings as well. And we’ve stayed connected on the telephone, FaceTime, letter writing, gaming. Also, connection has stayed through his siblings. So his siblings might speak to him and I might not speak to him for the week or a couple of weeks or the month, but his siblings check in with him.
(11:06):
So I guess that was the other thing too is I had to look at was that I wasn’t just the primary person in my son’s life, his sisters were, and that was okay. As long as he has a group of people supporting him, he has many different options available to him to who he’s going to go to when something gets tough. And I think that’s been the biggest thing is to build that support network and go, “You know what, just because your mom, you might not be the first point of call.” And that’s okay, but how do you keep him connected to many different people? So I guess our biggest one has been face-to-face, me and my son, and it’s doing different things. So we might go to the park and we might sit and we might chat, we might kick the ball, I might take a board game that he really loves.
(11:51):
We also remain connected, and he learned about family history. When he went to the hospital to see my mother, she was very ill. And after he’s seen his grandmother, we were walking out and I was able to tell him, “Upstairs is where I gave birth to you in this hospital many years ago.” So he was able to connect to his history through that scenario. So just finding any opportunity. A few years ago, it was my birthday and we went paddleboarding together and it was the first time in over eight years that we have ever seen each other without someone supervising us. And we’re in the middle of the ocean on paddleboards and then we went canoeing. So just trying to find any opportunity whatsoever to just spend time together. And I guess this connection just forms over time.
Alicia Ranford (Host) (12:34):
What do you think being able to continue your relationship with your son has meant for you and him?
Flick Kime (Guest) (12:40):
For me, it’s really meant a lot because I have three children living at home while my son doesn’t live with me. And it’s a reminder that my children don’t have to be in my house 24/7. And just because my child doesn’t live with me, it doesn’t mean he doesn’t love me or I don’t love him, where for a very long time I felt like he doesn’t love me, he doesn’t want me in his life because he wasn’t living in my home, where I can see that’s not the case.
(13:05):
We can love others from afar. It doesn’t have to be so close. And I think it really has shown my son, no matter where he is in the world and what space he’s in, he’s got a mother that’s always going to back him. And I think that’s what a child really needs to know. I know my children definitely need to know that they’ve got their mom on their side and I’ll back them no matter what.
Alicia Ranford (Host) (13:27):
And what a lovely message that even though you might not connect every day or even every week that you both know that connection is special and will always be there.
Flick Kime (Guest) (13:39):
Yeah, definitely.
Alicia Ranford (Host) (13:41):
So for anyone listening today who might be in a similar situation, what would your advice be for them?
Flick Kime (Guest) (13:46):
Well, I guess my first bit of advice would be just to take a moment and have a look at your situation, what’s going on? Do you understand it? If you don’t understand your situation with your child, go speak to a caseworker, go speak to someone that’s supportive and that you can trust, and just look at how you can navigate spending more time if that’s in person or letter writing, the phone. COVID has been really bad for the world, but in saying that, it’s brought out some good stuff of video connection. And I think that’s a really good one these days that if it’s not actually safe to see each other face-to-face or not wanting to do that right now, you’ve got video, you’ve got the phone, you’ve got mail.
(14:30):
There’s many different ways to do this stuff. And if it is having a chat to your caseworker and speaking to your caseworker of what message do you want delivered to your child? Sometimes this stuff can be really hard and emotional for both the child and parent to navigate as well. And there’s been times where, emotionally, this stuff has got too much for me and I’ve had to stand back and say, “I can’t see my son for a couple of months. I need to look after myself and get myself okay.” So there was a bit of radio silence there for a little while and then we reconnected again. So looking at things aren’t always going to be the same and having many different ideas at hand that you can draw upon instead of just the same old, same old that may be working or may not be working.
Alicia Ranford (Host) (15:12):
Because I know you and we’ve done lots of work together now, I know that you are a peer worker to support other parents to reconnect with their children. What have you found is the best way for parents to be able to do this?
Flick Kime (Guest) (15:25):
Being a peer worker, what I found with that is that it helped me actually heal through all this stuff where I felt that as a peer worker, I was just out there to help other parents and families connect. And I’ve always been very big on, I don’t just help families to be restored and everyone living back in the same home. I’ve always looked at it as, “How do I get a family to know the child and the child to know the family?” That’s the winning ticket for me, is connection. And what I found through doing that was that I found there was parts of me that would get healed without even knowing. And I guess that’s why I love my job so much, the learning experience that I get and the healing I get myself from it.
(16:08):
But what we find when working with parents is having a space where they can honestly speak about how they feel to other people. I remember when I disclosed to my support worker that I can’t see my son anymore at the moment because my mental health is low, I thought that I was just going to be shunned and people would look at me strange and that I didn’t love my child and they wouldn’t understand. And this woman just said, “I get it, Flick. You need to make a decision on what’s best for you and the children you have at home.” And from that moment, I realised that by supporting other parents, it gives them a space to get honest about what’s going on for them so then they can move past that and they can then connect with their child in a more authentic way.
(16:51):
And then it gives them the space to ask for help and say, “I don’t know,” or, “This isn’t working.” Where I find that if that space isn’t created, parents will continue on with the same old, same old, even if it’s not working because they’re too afraid to ask for help.
Alicia Ranford (Host) (17:06):
And ultimately, that working on your own mental health is going to be what’s not only best for you, but it’s also going to be what’s best for your child or children as well.
Flick Kime (Guest) (17:16):
Definitely. Within child protection, we have this idea that the work is only there for the child, that is their client, but if we support the family, in the long run, the child benefits mostly from that. So if we can connect everybody together, the child gets the best benefit possible.
Alicia Ranford (Host) (17:35):
What do you think parents should ask themselves before they start this process of reconnecting with a child who is in child protection?
Flick Kime (Guest) (17:44):
I think the biggest question would be, “Is now the right time? Am I mentally okay? Am I emotionally okay to start this off?” I think because if we’re not okay mentally and emotionally and we start on this rollercoaster because not everything goes smoothly, it can be quite dangerous for self and it can be quite damaging for the child. So I guess first off, “Am I okay? And is my child in the space right now? Is my child okay?” And also, during the process is checking in with yourself and your child too and making sure it’s still okay to continue on. Does it need to slow down? Does it need to fasten up? Is there something different that needs to go on?
(18:24):
And it might not be just you having a conversation with your child or you just reflecting within yourself, it might be someone else asking these questions. It might be you speaking with somebody else. It might be you speaking with your therapist, a support person, an advocate, somebody you trust. And in my situation, there’s many times that my old supervisor would be asking these questions. Sometimes I didn’t even recognise to ask myself, “Am I okay?” until she asks me, “Are you okay?”
Alicia Ranford (Host) (18:51):
And is part of the reconnection process also having some form of connection with the foster or kinship parents?
Flick Kime (Guest) (19:00):
It is very important that a parent and the foster carer or the kinship carer, or guardian in this case, is connected. I think this process is so much harder when nobody knows each other. And then I know this from firsthand experience because my three children were removed and they were in different homes, so three different carers and I didn’t know any of them. I didn’t know if my kids were safe, I didn’t know if they were happy, I didn’t know what these adults looked like, and I was very unease. And it wasn’t until I met my son’s carer, then I felt a little bit more at ease. I could picture a face, I could hear her tone, and I felt that my son was okay and he was safe.
(19:39):
But it was also too checking in with the carer, how my children are going. So what I do now is, monthly, I speak with my son’s guardian and she asks me how I am. I ask her has she had a break and if she’s okay. She’s got many kids in her home. We have a chat about what’s going on for my son, and this is all done on the phone once a month while he’s at school or he’s out and about and we just check in with each other and see how each other’s homes are going. So then that helps me when I do see my son or speak to my son on the phone, how to navigate that stuff.
Alicia Ranford (Host) (20:10):
And I know my children change their tastes and what they’re into on a monthly basis. So I’m imagining too that helps that connection because you know what to talk to them about and what questions to ask.
Flick Kime (Guest) (20:22):
Oh, definitely. And it definitely helps at Christmas and birthdays and stuff when thinking about what gifts coming out and it’s not something then my child actually know they’re just going to receive. But it’s definitely been really important, our conversations, about his favourite thing is soccer. So hearing about what soccer game he played if I wasn’t there, how it went. I’m able to actually have conversations with my son about some of the most meaningful stuff to him without sitting there looking clueless to him.
Alicia Ranford (Host) (20:51):
What would be the main thing you would want people to take away from hearing your story today, Flick?
Flick Kime (Guest) (20:57):
I think if we can just remember that everyone’s human and everyone makes mistakes and people connecting with other human beings is hard, but trying to reconnect with your child that’s in child protection is extremely hard. You’re up against multiple different people. You’re sitting in a space with a parent that may not actually understand what’s going on or how to connect in a healthy way.
(21:20):
So remembering, giving people space. And it’s okay for people to take a break. But mostly, checking in and just asking, “Are you okay?” I think as humans, we do that with our friendships all the time and there’s no difference to this stuff, us checking in with our other parents and family members asking, “Are they okay during this process? And what is it you need from me that I may be able to help you with?”
Alicia Ranford (Host) (21:43):
I really love that, “What is it you need from me that I might be able to help with?” That’s a really lovely message to end on, Flick. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences with us today.
Flick Kime (Guest) (21:53):
You’re welcome.
Alicia Ranford (Host) (21:54):
You have been listening to an Emerging Minds Families podcast. If anything spoken about today has been distressing for you or you find yourself struggling, please reach out for help. You can call Lifeline on 13114 or more resources for support can be found in our show notes.
Narrator (22:14):
Visit our website at www.emergingminds.com.au/families for a wide range of free information and resources to help support child and family mental health. Emerging Minds leads the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health. The Centre is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.