Transcript for
What families can do to look after themselves following a flood

Narrator (00:02):

Welcome to the Emerging Minds Families Podcast.

Nadia Rossi (Introduction) (00:06):

I’m Nadia Rossi. Today, our host Ben Rogers, Manager, Families and Education at Emerging Minds will be talking with psychologist and educator, Michelle Roberts. Michelle is the director of the Australian Child and Adolescent Trauma Loss and Grief Network at the Australian National University. She’s one of the leading experts in disaster recovery.

And in today’s podcast, we will be talking about the impact floods can have on children and families. She’ll also be exploring key practical ways in which parents and carers can support children as their family recovers from these devastating events.

Ben Rogers (Host) (00:46):

Thanks for joining us, Michelle. Michelle, disasters are becoming more common across Australia. What kind of impact do disasters have on children and families?

Michelle Roberts (Guest) (00:56):

You’re right about disasters, feeling like they’re more common and, in fact, they are becoming more frequent and severe as well. We’ve got frequency and severity changes. And because of the frequency, they can be overlapping. For some people, like in our flood affected areas at the moment here in Australia, they were recovering from one flood when another flood came. And so, we’ve got different points of recovery for different events. And they can be cumulative and get quite overwhelming by just trying to manage the realities of all of that.

(01:30):

It can mean for families that there isn’t a chance to draw breath, there’s not a chance to stop and think about what’s happened and what it means for the family and the individuals within the family. They’re just in a react and respond phase a lot of the time, and that’s pretty exhausting.

(01:46):

But we also know that being prepared as a family together, so that means everyone in the family having the conversations, being prepared and talking about what you’re going to do when there is another disaster, a fire, a flood, a storm, whatever it might be. How you’re going to best manage it, where people are going to be where you’re going to meet if you get separated. They can be tough conversations to have, but they’re important conversations and they can be protective. Knowing what you’re going to do when it happens is a way of being psychologically and physically prepared for something that can be overwhelming and hard to judge.

Ben Rogers (Host) (02:25):

Interesting, Michelle. And I really want to touch on looking at the floods. And you mentioned preparedness, there being a really key component for families to be thinking about as we move into thinking about disasters. What is it at a family level that parents and carers can reflect on to do with children in the home environment?

Michelle Roberts (Guest) (02:43):

I really like the fact that you said with children, because often, I hear to children or for children, which means that children are passive in the whole experience. And we know that’s not true. And we know that being involved in the plan, in the response and the recovery is really helpful for children’s own wellbeing and mental health recovery after the frightening experience.

(03:09):

It’s when we feel helpless and hopeless that it really starts to undo our mental wellbeing, whether it’s an adult or a child. Obviously, you would look at who’s in your family, who are we talking about when we talk about a family plan? A family’s a little unit all of its own, but then it’s got the parents within the family, the carers, grandparents, aunties, uncles, neighbours, friends sometimes. You’ve got each individual child and then you’ve got the children as a group in their own right as well.

(03:41):

And then, of course, you’ve got the relationships between the kids. I think about every possible permeation of what a family might mean, and that is really specific to each family. And in doing that, then you think about where the strengths and vulnerabilities are in your family, what you need to plan for, who can do what, who feels comfortable doing it.

(04:04):

And it’s something that you have to talk about because we often overlook what kids bring to the world, what they see, how they see it. And they have some wonderful ideas about how the family can work, what they worry about that can be built into the planning. The best thing families can do is to talk about it. Talk about what the risks are, how they think they’ll respond to it, who’s going to do what. How you’re going to do that?

(04:29):

Where are you going to meet if you’re separated? Disasters can happen at any time in that day and night, and if it happens when children are at preschool, or learning centres, or at school, or at a friend’s place, you won’t be physically together when it happens and you need to all know what the plan is. And how you’ll communicate with each other when the crisis is unfolding if you can. Talking about a meeting point is really important because you have a sense of where you’re going to catch up again.

(05:00):

Being together in an adverse situation like a flood is protective as well. And I think it’s really tricky because when we know a threat like a fire or a flood is coming and we’ve got warning, it’s not unusual for parents to choose to send the children to someone else’s place to be safe away from the threat. And for the parents to stay and manage the threat at the home or wherever it is.

(05:28):

We do know that being separated from family is a risk factor for kids. They worry. They wonder what’s happening. They imagine the worst sometimes. Actually being there, being able to help, being safe, both physically and psychologically, is really important.

Ben Rogers (Host) (05:44):

Yeah, mentioned that creating space for listening to what a child’s perspective might be is really important. And is this across all ages? And what kind of practical advice would you have for families around how they can start to talk to children about this?

Michelle Roberts (Guest) (06:00):

I guess we’re talking about families that have had the experience and may have it again, and families who haven’t yet had that experience. And so, it’s a little different, your starting point. It’s always really helpful to understand what the child already knows, what they think, what they’re worried about.

(06:15):

And if we’re having that conversation with the child, we’re assuming that they’re verbal. You asked about ages and stages. And our tiny little children, our zero to twos aren’t going to be able to tell us what they’re thinking about a disaster because hopefully, they haven’t experienced a disaster yet. But you will be bringing them along gently on the journey at a developmental level. Where they can process what the conversation is.

(06:42):

Or you can say to a two-year-old, “which special toy do you want us to put in this box so that if we have to go soon and quick, we’ll make sure we’ve got this toy with us?” That they have some agency in the planning that you build on as they become three and four and five and six, they’ll be able to remember back and think, “I did this and I still have that toy.”

(07:05):

Or, “we talked about getting into the car quickly.” I was speaking with a family the other day who talk about playing a game of how quickly they can get in the car because their plan is to evacuate and it becomes a family game. They time, they compete, and it also gets the practice in around being quick to get to safety when you can.

(07:26):

Conversations with children should be matched to their developmental level, but it should also be matched to the temperament of the child. If you’ve got a child that’s a worrier, you’ll be wanting to talk about what the worries are, but also what the actions and solutions are, not just leaving them sit with the worry all the time. If you’ve got a child that’s a real risk taker, you want to talk through what they think they’re going to do and then test whether that’s a good idea or not.

(07:54):

You don’t have to have all the answers. I think that’s the thing that a lot of parents worry about is what if I don’t know the right thing to do? And you talk about doing the best thing at that point in time. And that can be talking through with each other, “What if I do this? What if the water’s coming here and we do this? What if we have to sit on the roof? What if, what if, what if?” It’s that curious, questioning, the wondering, and then the searching for a possible answer that’s really helpful in doing your planning as a family.

Ben Rogers (Host) (08:25):

Thanks, Michelle. And you’ve mentioned flooding. And many, many communities across the country are impacted by floods each year. And particularly more recently, there’s been some really significant events across the east coast of Australia. What kind of impact does flooding have on families?

Michelle Roberts (Guest) (08:43):

Well, I wish I could talk from a very strong position of research knowledge, but we have a lot more research on bush fires than we do floods. And the nature of the experience of a flood is quite different to a fire. They have some similarities of threat and risk and fear. And a bit of chaos and a terrible time where you have to rebuild if you’ve lost things in your physical environment. And the physiological and emotional responses can be very similar.

(09:13):

Floods though, to me, just seem to linger and linger and linger. There’s often a suddenness and an unexpectedness to floods. Sometimes we have more warning around fires, but not always. What do we know about floods? We know that they take a long time to recover from. They cost a lot of money across the board to people, to communities, to government. They alter the relationships in families just as most disasters do, where you go into what I would call survival mode.

(09:46):

You’re busy trying to rebuild if you’ve had your house damaged or you’ve lost your home. You’re living with other people, so that changes the dynamics within the family and that alters relationships. It can be a time of intense pressure. And that can lead to conflict and arguments, use of alcohol and drugs as a way of self-soothing, which then escalates more problems within the family.

(10:10):

Everything that the child has known as being the family and how the family operates and is predictable, has been altered after an event like a flood. And what they need is some new normal, some predictability and some conversation around what comes next and how we’re going to do it.

Ben Rogers (Host) (10:28):

You mentioned the new normal and predictability. And the parents and carers will play a really important role in supporting children to feel safe and secure following an event like this. What kind of guidance would you have for parents and carers in supporting children’s recovery following an event like a flood?

Michelle Roberts (Guest) (10:45):

The first thing would be look after yourself. And I know that sounds really counterintuitive because you are the adult, you are the grown up. And you might see that your role is to look after the children, that your job is to protect and support them. And it is. But unless you are looking after yourself, they’re not going to be able to recover as well as we would hope.

(11:06):

We often talk about put your own oxygen mask on first. That’s what we’re asking you to do in this circumstance, is to look after yourself. Look after your relationship with your partner, because if you are a solid pair, the children have an anchor or a reference point for how they can recover themselves. We know that parents play a really important role in family recovery.

(11:29):

And one of the key tasks that parents have after a flood or a fire type disaster is to start to rebuild the family, to rebuild some routines. To have a roof over your head and be able to put food in bellies. And get kids to school so that there is some routine again that was there before the floods.

(11:48):

We know that parents adjust to the changes that come after a disaster at different rates, and children also adjust at different rates. And so sometimes, you can be at odds with each other just because your recovery paths are different and you’re moving on or not moving on. And it can cause tensions, but it’s important to remember everyone does it in their own time.

(12:11):

And it’s also not uncommon for people to seem like they’re really okay for months and months and months. And then there’s a delayed response. And it can be a bit of an, “oh, but I thought everything was okay. And now you seem to be struggling.” It’s not uncommon that people use all their resources and then eventually, they run out of resources for coping and they need some support and connection and support. And maybe some mental health intervention to help them with that.

(12:37):

Keeping in mind that it’s an individual journey as well as a collective journey as a family. It’s a lot to think about in all of this. The really most important thing is to listen to what the children are saying. And it’s not just what the words are that are coming out of their mouth, but what are they saying with their behaviour? Are they unsettled? Are they frightened? Do they jump much more rapidly?

(12:59):

We often see that in little kids that their startle response is much greater than it used to be. Loud noises, raised voices are very frightening. Because their whole physiological system, their body system is geared to, what’s the next threat? Are we safe? Listen to what they’re saying both verbally and through their body language.

(13:20):

Watch how they’re behaving. And if there’s anything that’s concerning, ask them about it. “How are you feeling? What are you thinking?” The curious questioning, “I noticed you’re doing this. What’s that about?” Talk with them about coping and if you find that you get upset and having the conversations with them, that’s okay. Talk about, “you need to get yourself calm.” Talk through how you’re going to do that because it’s an opportunity to teach them about things that can just calm your heart rate, bring your blood pressure down, soothe your breathing so that then you can come back and get control of your emotions.

(13:54):

It’s a life lesson that you’re demonstrating to them about, we all get overwhelmed sometimes, but these are the strategies we can use to be calm. Ask their opinion about the decisions that are being made about rebuilding, moving, what do they want to do? Ask them what they want in their bedroom if you’re rebuilding and need to buy new furniture.

(14:14):

Check in with them and ask how they’re going. Keep them in the loop about what’s happening. Including that talking about the future because sometimes we lose sense of the future and how it may be better than what you’re in at the moment. And we all need a sense of hope to get through tough times like this.

Ben Rogers (Host) (14:31):

Well, it’s really interesting reflecting on that sense of walking together as a family unit, but also having your own individual experiences and creating that open communication together being really important. Michelle, thinking about parents who know it’s important to talk to their kids about recovery following a disaster. And some things that might be impacting them from taking that step into having the conversation and potentially maybe saying the wrong thing or being able to manage that emotion for the kids as they support them through things they’re describing. What are some practical ways that a parent could set up a conversation with their child?

Michelle Roberts (Guest) (15:07):

I’ve heard on more than one occasion, parents are fearful of doing harm to their children by starting the conversation around disasters and what are we going to do and what’s our family going to do? They think that they’re being protective by not including the child in those tougher conversations.

(15:24):

And they can be unsettling. They’re unsettling for adults, they’re unsettling for the children too sometimes. But the thing is to start it gently and talk about, “we’re going to have a family plan, and the plan is if something happens that’s unexpected. Like what if I get held up at work and I can’t pick you up from school? What are you going to do? I’ll go back into the office and let them know that you haven’t come yet and sit with them and they’ll contact you,” whatever. It is a real pose a question, look at a solution, talk through if that’s the best solution.

(15:59):

We do it in our life in lots of different ways, talking with kids about what are we doing on the weekend? How are we going to get you to your sports because I’m here, but you need to be there. We demonstrate a, “here’s something I don’t know how to manage and here’s the way I’m thinking about it. And is this the solution?”

(16:17):

A lot of schools in their curriculum are already doing disaster resilience education, and often kids come home and they raise the discussion with the family about, have we got an emergency management plan? Have we got a family plan for what we’ll do if there’s a fire or a flood or a big storm? And then you can start to talk about, “well, what do you think we need to know? Where do we need to plan?” Table talk. If you have dinner at a table, then it’s a good time to be saying, “I read this the other day and this family had a plan. I wonder if we need to look at having a plan as well.”

(16:52):

We find that children often listen to the conversation, put in what they know, but go away and have a think about it. And then they’ll come back and say, or you can ask them, “you know how we were talking about our family plan the other day? Have you had any more thoughts about that?” There are websites like Red Cross’s website that guide families in the conversations and the planning and give you example of plans.

(17:15):

There’s the Pillowcase Project where children are encouraged to think about what they want to take if they have to leave home quickly. And that’s like I mentioned before, about a special toy. We know that having a special something from your bedroom or a toy that you’ve had for a long time, is a really important transitional object to carry with you from home to wherever you go after the flood and then back to wherever you end up so that you’ve got some continuity and some memory. Very helpful thing to do.

(17:46):

If you’re anxious about having the conversation, have a talk to the child’s teacher or their preschool teacher or even their carer. And ask them what are they doing with kids already at school around disaster resilience? I know that a lot of kindergartens are doing bush kinder now. And in the conversation about a bush kinder situation, often the discussion about fire comes up. And good fire and fire that’s something that you have to be planned and organised around.

(18:18):

And my four-year-old nephew can talk about cool fire and the indigenous practices with fire. And he knows what the plan is for his childcare centre if there’s a fire. At four, he can tell me what they’re going to do because he’s been given the opportunity to learn the knowledge and practice the skills. And that’s really important for physical and psychological safety.

Ben Rogers (Host) (18:42):

Thinking about the younger years, Michelle, you’ve mentioned the importance of having those conversations. Are there things like storybooks and play and other ways of engaging with younger kids that parents could draw on?

Michelle Roberts (Guest) (18:52):

Yeah, there is. That’s a great question. Thank you. I certainly love the Birdie’s Tree books. Really good for preschool age children, but I’ve also used them in early primary school quite comfortably. To sit down and have a read of Birdie and her experience of a storm, a flood, a fire, gives children an opportunity to hear that it happens. It happens to other people as well as them. And Birdie has some really lovely messages around coping.

(19:19):

That’s the start of a gentle conversation with a child about, “what would we do if? How do we think about this? These are the actions we can take.” And Birdie always can take some action to keep herself safe. We are giving that message of there are things that you can do too as well as us all together.

(19:37):

There’s also really lovely story books, novels for young adults that have the same theme of a disaster, actions taken, the emotional process that happens after a disaster. And my mind always goes back to Morris Gleitzman’s books. After the Black Saturday fires, that was one of the most powerful set of books for working through the experience with the 10 to 15 age groups.

(20:06):

Look around for books and children, play around emergencies all the time. Fire trucks to play with, police cars. Opportunity to talk about where the helpers are. How we would reach out if we felt unsure to which helper? What we’d need to tell them, what information, do you know your name? Do you know your address? Who can you tell this information to? That’s part of a family planning discussion. Take your opportunities when the time’s ripe and talk with your kids about what they’re going to do and how you’re going to support them.

Ben Rogers (Host) (20:38):

For the parents who are listening in today, is there anyone else that can be drawn on to support them in the child’s recovery? I’m thinking about school or early learning services or even professional support at different points in time.

Michelle Roberts (Guest) (20:50):

Yeah. I did mention previously that watchful monitoring of your children and if you start to feel concerned for them that it’s really useful to reach out and have conversations with other trusted adults. That could be a teacher, it could be a doctor, it could be a grandparent, an auntie, an uncle. Check in and say, “I’m seeing this. Are you seeing it too? Do you think that’s normal or do you think that’s worrying?”

(21:17):

And they might say, “look, I think it’s actually probably to be expected after the time you’ve had. But if you’re still seeing it and it’s getting worse, then maybe it would be helpful to go and talk to someone who understands children and their responses to disasters and what their needs might be.” Sometimes you just need one conversation with a mental health professional like me, and it sets and resets the way you are working together and pulling together to get through this tough time. Sometimes you need to come back a number of times. It’s just again, a very individual thing.

(21:50):

Certainly, having conversations with the teachers and the carers for your children, we know if a family’s well connected with a lot of support from the broader family, they tend to do better in their recovery. We pull upon our supports to help us make sense of things that have been really hard to get our head around. We pull on support for rebuilding, for basic needs sometimes of staying in someone else’s house or getting help with getting meals on the table, or food in the belly, or lunches for school. Really practical things like that.

(22:26):

It can be really hard to do those basic things when your head’s in 100 places trying to think about that threat and what happened and what you have to do now. And how are you going to talk to the insurance company? And how you’re going to navigate the government offers? And you can’t make sense of the forms. It’s the most useful time to bring in a big support group behind you to help you navigate this new normal and to get through it and create the normal that you want for your family.

Ben Rogers (Host) (22:53):

Michelle, we know that disasters happen all over the world. Is there anything that Australia could be learning from other countries in this area?

Michelle Roberts (Guest) (23:02):

Australia’s really good with their own research in floods in particular. After the terrible 2011 floods, there was a scurry of research. And thankfully, from my perspective, a reasonable amount of that research looked at children and children’s needs. And that hasn’t always been the case.

(23:20):

We learned from that children do better if they’re with family during and after the flood. Children do better if they have open and respectful communication that’s honest with their family about what’s happening, what’s happened, how they feel, what the family needs to do and what the tough things are for the family as well. We don’t need to sugarcoat, nor do we need to shock. But we need to inform and give children information.

(23:47):

We learned from Hurricane Katrina, which is probably still a benchmark for a horrific event. In fact, Hurricane Katrina’s what we call a catastrophic disaster, because so many things happened within Hurricane Katrina and after it. And we learned from Hurricane Katrina that it’s often the aftermath that does as much damage, if not more than the actual event.

(24:11):

We call these the secondary adversities. They can be being displaced, not having a home, losing financial security, being grief stricken and bereaved. Losing people that you love and not knowing where they are and struggling to reconnect with them. Seeing horrible things, hearing horrible things. Living with mould and the smell of either the fire or the flood. Having to change schools and having to be a new kid in a school where not everyone shared your experience can be really tough as well.

(24:44):

Hurricane Katrina also taught us what really good interventions we can do as mental health professionals and what communities can do to come together and support each other. So that that connection and compassion and care and feeling safe, knowing what the day’s going to bring within reason and what you can do to make the day work for you are very basic things that are very important to finding our feet again and feeling grounded.

(25:12):

We also learned that there are some people and some children who would manage really well without any professional intervention. Having family, having caring people around them helps them get through it. Then there’s a group that need just a bit of extra help. And they might get some group support at school or join a grouping community to talk about what’s happening. Or join a group to help rebuild, repair, clean up and feel like you’ve got some use in making things better again.

(25:45):

And then for a really small number, there’ll be the need for one-on-one psychological support. It’s not as often as we think. We often hear and counselling was provided in the news coverage. And certainly, counseling’s available. But most people don’t need counselling and most children don’t need counselling in the early stages.

(26:06):

They might find that they’ve got some worries, fears, ways of behaving down the track that are still causing concern when all the threats gone and they’re still responding as though there’s a big threat. And that’s when you would probably engage with your local doctor to talk about mental health plans and needs. A psychologist, a social worker, anyone who works with children, knows about disasters and mental health.

(26:31):

They’re the people that you would go to when you start to really have concerns about, “This just isn’t resolving and it’s really getting in the way of my child or myself living the life that we want to live and at our best.” That’s when you reach out for that more professional help.

Ben Rogers (Host) (26:46):

Thank you, Michelle. It’s been such an interesting and insightful conversation with you today. And for the parents and families that are listening in today, what are some key takeaway messages that you’d like them to walk away with?

Michelle Roberts (Guest) (26:59):

Yeah. The first one is acknowledge that children are affected by the flood because there are still people who think that, “Oh, they’re resilient. Or they don’t realise what’s really happened.” And I think we say that for our own benefit rather than the benefit of the child. Just as you’re affected, they are also affected by what’s happened.

(27:19):

Remember that they look to the adults in their life to help restore their sense of safety and predictability. And that doesn’t have to be the routine you had before the flood or the fire, but it does have to be one that they can say with confidence, “This is going to happen today. This is what we’re going to do. This is how the day’s going to run. I’m going to get up, I’m going to have breakfast, I’m going to go to school, I’m going to come home. And then we are going to do whatever we’re going to do.” Predictability is the new normal that we need to establish.

(27:50):

One of the other real takeaways I want to remind parents and the adults in children’s lives is that they worry about you. And in fact, often children won’t reach out for help for their own distress until they’re confident that their parents are psychologically safe. And I’ve had children come to me to have some treatment and support from me and will clearly say to me, “Don’t worry about me. It’s mum I’m worried about. Can you talk with mum?”

(28:17):

Again, look after yourself, get help for yourself and know that they are as worried about you as you are about them, and you can reassure them. But unless that’s honest reassurance that is how you’re feeling or that you are getting help, they’ll pick that you’re not telling them the truth. And then it’s hard to trust what else you say from that point. Authenticity and honesty is really important.

(28:40):

Make time to spend time together as a family and do fund things. We lose fun after disasters. We forget how to laugh. And a good belly laugh is such good therapy. But go somewhere, do things together. Build the family unit again as a tight structure of doing things together and being together.

(29:00):

Build the relationship with your partner, with each child and with the family unit. And don’t forget to look after yourself in that. Don’t forget to have the talks around planning and recovery. And talk about those changes that have happened. And maybe there’s some good changes in this and you want to keep them. Maybe there’s some that you want to get rid of and go back to what you used to know. That’s a family conversation to be had with the adults leading because you understand the logistics and the realities. But share the conversation with the kids.

(29:31):

And remember, I really do want to remind you that where you can stick together as a family. It’s very tempting, I think, when you’ve got a million things to do to rebuild, restore, recover, to park the kids with trusted others, like grandparents and aunts and uncles. But they need to be part of the recovery journey with you to shore up that family unit.

(29:54):

And if you are struggling, make sure you get help for yourself. Again, I started with that point and I want to finish with that point. We need you to be well and coping so that everything else comes from that.

Ben Rogers (Host) (30:05):

Thanks, Michelle. What a important message to finish on today in the podcast. And thank you for all the important and practical messages that we’ve been able to hear today for families across the country.

Michelle Roberts (Guest) (30:15):

Thank you.

Narrator (30:19):

Visit our website at www.emergingminds.com.au/families for a wide range of free information and resources to help support child and family mental health. Emerging Minds leads the National Workforce Centre for Child Mental Health. The Centre is funded by the Australian Government Department of Health under the National Support for Child and Youth Mental Health Program.